We vibe around a lot in our heads and that's great. But it's really refreshing, every so often, to be where the rubber meets the road.

I think you have every right to doubt those telling us that they run 5 agents to generate a new SAAS-product while they are sipping latté in a bar. To work like that I believe you'll have to let go of really digging into the code, which in my experience is needed if want good quality.

Yet I think coding agents can be quite a useful help for some of the trivial, but time consuming chores.

For instance I find them quite good at writing tests. I still have to tweak the tests and make sure that they do as they say, but overall the process is faster IMO.

They are also quite good at brute-forcing some issue with a certain configuration in a dark corner of your android manifest. Just know that they WILL find a solution even if there is none, so keep them on a leash!

Today I used Claude for bringing a project I abandoned 5 years ago up to speed. It's still at work in progress, but the task seemed insurmountable (in my limited spare time) without AI, now it feels like I'm half-way there in 2-3 hours.

Outsourcing this to an LLM is similar to an airplane stall .. I just dip mentally. The stress goes away too, since I assume the LLM will get rid of the "problem" but I have no more incentives to think, create, solve anything.

Still blows my mind how different people approach some fields. I see people at work who are drooling about being able to have code made for them .. but I'm not in that group.

I also use these things to just plan out an approach. You can use plan mode for yourself to get an idea of the steps required and then ask the agent to write it to a file. Pull up the file and then go do it yourself.

Sometimes the AI does weird stuff too. I wrote a texture projection for a nonstandard geometric primitive, the projection used some math that was valid only for local regions… long story. Claude kept on wanting to rewrite the function to what it thought was correct (it was not) even when I directed to non related tasks. Super annoying. I ended up wrapping the function in comments telling it to f#=% off before it would leave it alone.

With AI, the correct approach is to think more like a software architect.

Learning to plan things out in your head upfront without to figure things out while coding requires a mindset shift, but is important to work effectively with the new tools.

To some this comes naturally, for others it is very hard.

How I see it is we've reverted back to a heavier spec type approach, however the turn around time is so fast with agents that it still can feel very iterative simply because the cost of bailing on an approach is so minimal. I treat the spec (and tests when applicable) as the real work now. I front load as much as I can into the spec, but I also iterate constantly. I often completely bail on a feature or the overall approach to a feature as I discover (with the agent) that I'm just not happy with the gotchas that come to light.

AI agents to me are a tool. An accelerator. I think there are people who've figured out a more vibey approach that works for them, but for now at least, my approach is to review and think about everything we're producing, which forms my thoughts as we go.

If I have to say, we're just waiting for the AI concern caucus to get tired of performing for each other and justifying each other's inaction in other facets of their lives.

This past week, I spent a couple of days modifying a web solution written by someone else + converting it from a Terraform based deployment to CloudFormation using Codex - without looking at the code as someone who hasn’t done front in development in a decade - I verified the functionality.

More relevantly but related, I spent a couple of hours thinking through an architecture - cloud + an Amazon managed service + infrastructure as code + actual coding, diagramming it, labeling it , and thinking about the breakdown and phases to get it done. I put all of the requirements - that I would have done anyway - into a markdown file and told Claude and Codex to mark off items as I tested each item and summarize what it did.

Looking at the amount of work, between modifying the web front end and the new work, it would have taken two weeks with another developer helping me before AI based coding. It took me three or four days by myself.

The real kicker though is while it worked as expected for a couple of hundred documents, it fell completely to its knees when I threw 20x documents into the system. Before LLMs, this would have made me look completely incompetent telling the customer I now wasted two weeks worth of time and 2 other resources.

Now, I just went back to the literal drawing board, rearchitected it, did all of the things with code that the managed services abstracted away with a few tweaks, created a new mark down file and was done in a day. That rework would have taken me a week by itself. I knew the theory behind what the managed service was doing. But in practice I had never done it.

It’s been over a decade where I was responsable for a delivery that I could do by myself without delegating to other people or that was simple enough that I wouldn’t start with a design document for my own benefit. Now within the past year, I can take on larger projects by myself without the coordination/“mythical man Month” overhead.

I can also in a moment of exasperation say to Codex “what you did was an over complicated stupid mess, rethink your implementation from first principles” without getting reported to HR.

There is also a lot of nice to have gold plating that I will do now knowing that it will be a lot faster

If you need that, don't use AI for it. What is it that you don't enjoy coding or think it's tangential to your thinking process? Maybe while you focus on the code have an agent build a testing pipeline, or deal with other parts of the system that is not very ergonomic or need some cleanup.

Is the entire AI bubble just the result of taking performance metrics like "lines of code written per day" to their logical extreme?

Software quality and productivity have always been notoriously difficult to measure. That problem never really got solved in a way that allowed non technical management to make really good decisions from the spreadsheet level of abstraction... but those are the same people driving adoption of all these AI tools.

Engineers sometimes do their jobs in spite of poor incentives, but we are eliminating that as an economic inefficiency.

For mission-critical applications I wonder if making "writing the actual code" so much cheaper means that it would make more sense to do more formal design up front instead, when you no longer have a human directly in the loop during the writing of the code to think about those nasty pops-up-on-the-fly decisions.

On the other hand, every time the matter is seriously empirically studied, it turns out that overall:

* productivity gains are very modest, if not negative

* there are considerable drawbacks, including most notably the brainrot effect

Furthermore, AI spend is NOT delivering the promised returns to the extent that we are now seeing reversals in the fortunes of AI stocks, up to and including freakin' NVIDIA, as customers cool on what's being offered.

So I'm supposed to be an empiricist about this, and yet I'm supposed to switch on the word of a "cool story bro" about how some guy built an app or added a feature the other day that he totally swears would have taken him weeks otherwise?

I'm like you. I use code as a part of my thought process for how to solve a problem. It's a notation for thought, much like mathematical or musical notation, not just an end product. "Programs must be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute." I've actually come to love documenting what I intend to do as I do it, esp. in the form of literate programming. It's like context engineering the intelligence I've got upstairs. Helps the old ADHD brain stay locked in on what needs to be done and why. Org-mode has been extremely helpful in general for collecting my scatterbrained thoughts. But when I want to experiment or prove out a new technique, I lean on working directly with code an awful lot.

I completely agree but my thought went to how we are supposed to estimate work just like that. Or worse, planning poker where I'm supposed to estimate work someone else does.

Two principles I have held for many years which I believe are relevant both to your sentiment and this thread are reproduced below. Hopefully they help.

First:

  When making software, remember that it is a snapshot of 
  your understanding of the problem. It states to all, 
  including your future-self, your approach, clarity, and 
  appropriateness of the solution for the problem at hand. 
  Choose your statements wisely.

  Code answers what it does, how it does it, when it is used, 
  and who uses it. What it cannot answer is why it exists. 
  Comments accomplish this. If a developer cannot be bothered 
  with answering why the code exists, why bother to work with 
  them?

This is the opinion of someone who has not tried to use Claude Code, in a brand new project with full permissions enabled, and with a model from the last 3 months.

Don't get me wrong, I do think AI coding is pretty dangerous for those without the right expertise to harness it with the right guardrails, and I'm really worried about what it will mean for open source and SWE hiring, but I do think refusing to use AI at this point is a bit like the assembly programmer saying they'll never learn C.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46827777

In reality that man is hoping to IPO in 6-12 months, if anyone is wondering why the “use claude or you’re left behind” is so heavy right now.

“Break things down” is something most of us do instinctively now but it’s something I see less experienced people fail at all the time.

i have written this text by myself except like 2 or 3 sentences which i iterated with an LLM to nail down flow and readability. I would interpret that as completely written by me.

> The suggestions you make are all sensible but maybe a little bit generic and obvious. Asking ChatGPT to generate advice on effectively writing quality code with AI generates a lot of similar suggestions (albeit less well written).

Before i wrote this text, i also asked Gemini Deep Research but for me the results where too technical and not structural or high level as i describe them here. Hence the blogpost to share what i have found works best.

> If not, I'd suggest to augment the post with practical examples or anecdotal experience. At the moment, the target group seems to be novice programmers rather than the typical HN reader.

I have pondered the idea and also wrote a few anecdotal experiences but i deleted them again because i think it is hard to nail the right balance down and it is also highly depended on the project, what renders examples a bit useless.

And i also kind of like the short and lean nature of it the last few days when i worked on the blogpost. I might will make a few more blogposts about that, that will expand a few points.

Thank you for your feedback!

I find rust generally easier to reason about, but can't stand writing it.

The compiler works well with LLMs plenty of good tooling and LSPs.

If I'm happy with the shape of the code and I usually write the function signatures/ Module APIs. And the compiler is happy with it compiling. Usually the errors if any are logical ones I should catch in reviews.

So I focus on function, compiler focuses on correctness and LLM just does the actual writing.

If your goal is for AI to write code that works, is maintainable and extensible, you have to include as many deterministic guardrails as possible.

Astronaut 2, Tim Bryce: Always has been...

It’s also nothing new, as it’s basically Joe Armstrong's programming method. It’s just not prohibitively expensive for the first time in history.

But there’s more time to do some of these other things if the actual coding time is trending toward zero.

And the importance of it can go up with AI systems because they do actually use the documentation you write as part of their context! Direct visible value can lead people to finally take more seriously things that previously felt like luxuries they didn’t have time for.

Again if you’ve been a developer for more than 10 minutes, you’ve had the discouraging experience of pain-stakingly writing very good documentation only for it to be ignored by the next guy. This isn’t how LLMs work. They read your docs.

  > repo will always win over documentation

i think languages that allow expression of "this is deprecated, use x instead" will be usefull for that too

One session's scaffold assumes one pattern. Second session scaffold contradicts it. You reviewed both in isolation. Both looked fine. Neither knows about the other.

Reviewing AI code per-session is like proofreading individual chapters of a novel nobody's reading front to back. Each chapter is fine. The plot makes no sense.